On Wednesday, August 26, 1998 7:00:00 AM UTC, Albin O. Schreiter wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Aug 1998 16:31:07 +0200, (Miriano
> Ravazzolo) wrote:
>
>
> >My experience on those spoilers are only on the Libelle. Maybe what can
> >be said is that this kind of things have to be used a little bit more
> >"slowly" than a SH air-brake. You can actually close them everytime, even
> >during flare, if you consider them as a kind of "active elements" which
> >modify not only your drag but also your asset. If you close them
> >abbruptly, before starting the new (flatter) angle the nose will drop a
> >little to let you gain a bit of more speed, and this is not advisable too
> >close to the ground.
> >
> >Miriano Ravazzolo
>
> Your experience on a Libelle does not help much with the Mini-Nimbus
> flap/trailing edge dive brakes. On the Mini it is just about essential
> NOT to close the system slowly. The correct way is to close
> flap/divebrake fast and completely, and to then start over again to
> whatever setting is appropriate. This avoids the danger of stalling
> inadvertently.
> Remove NOSPAM from return address before replying

this is a fascinating discussion about the flap/spoiler combination but I would like to know about the all flying tail and what issues that might present to the new (low time) pilot. Is it as bad as several other discussions and articles would lead one to believe or is it something that can be "lived with" once understood?

For the HS-7 Mini Nimbus (all flying tail version) there is an approved mod
to fit an anti-balance tab to increase elevator forces. (Mandatory for a
UK CofA).This makes it less pitch sensitive than a Standard Cirrus, and
lots of low hours pilots have flown those. I wouldn't recommend a low
hours pilot to try a VNE low pass in either (or anything else for that
matter).

For reference, I have owned 2 Minis, one bought factory new in 1977, and
the other 25 years old bought in 2002. Delightful toy, big cockpit, easy
to fly.

At 11:48 05 August 2014, wrote:
>On Wednesday, August 26, 1998 7:00:00 AM UTC, Albin O. Schreiter wrote:
>> On Wed, 26 Aug 1998 16:31:07 +0200, (Miriano
>> Ravazzolo) wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>> >My experience on those spoilers are only on the Libelle. Maybe what
>can=
>=20
>> >be said is that this kind of things have to be used a little bit
more=20
>> >"slowly" than a SH air-brake. You can actually close them everytime,
>eve=
>n=20
>> >during flare, if you consider them as a kind of "active elements"
which=
>=20
>> >modify not only your drag but also your asset. If you close them=20
>> >abbruptly, before starting the new (flatter) angle the nose will drop
a=
>=20
>> >little to let you gain a bit of more speed, and this is not advisable
>to=
>o=20
>> >close to the ground.
>> >
>> >Miriano Ravazzolo
>>=20
>> Your experience on a Libelle does not help much with the Mini-Nimbus
>> flap/trailing edge dive brakes. On the Mini it is just about essential
>> NOT to close the system slowly. The correct way is to close
>> flap/divebrake fast and completely, and to then start over again to
>> whatever setting is appropriate. This avoids the danger of stalling
>> inadvertently.
>> Remove NOSPAM from return address before replying
>
>this is a fascinating discussion about the flap/spoiler combination but I
>w=
>ould like to know about the all flying tail and what issues that might
>pres=
>ent to the new (low time) pilot. Is it as bad as several other
discussions
>=
>and articles would lead one to believe or is it something that can be
>"live=
>d with" once understood?
>

On 2014-08-05 11:48:05 +0000, said:

> On Wednesday, August 26, 1998 7:00:00 AM UTC, Albin O. Schreiter wrote:
>> On Wed, 26 Aug 1998 16:31:07 +0200, (Miriano
>> Ravazzolo) wrote:
>>
>>
>>> My experience on those spoilers are only on the Libelle. Maybe what
>>> can> >be said is that this kind of things have to be used a little bit
>>> more> >"slowly" than a SH air-brake. You can actually close them
>>> everytime, even> >during flare, if you consider them as a kind of
>>> "active elements" which> >modify not only your drag but also your
>>> asset. If you close them> >abbruptly, before starting the new (flatter)
>>> angle the nose will drop a> >little to let you gain a bit of more
>>> speed, and this is not advisable too> >close to the ground.
>>>
>>> Miriano Ravazzolo
>>
>> Your experience on a Libelle does not help much with the Mini-Nimbus
>> flap/trailing edge dive brakes. On the Mini it is just about essential
>> NOT to close the system slowly. The correct way is to close
>> flap/divebrake fast and completely, and to then start over again to
>> whatever setting is appropriate. This avoids the danger of stalling
>> inadvertently.
>> Remove NOSPAM from return address before replying
>
> this is a fascinating discussion about the flap/spoiler combination but
> I would like to know about the all flying tail and what issues that
> might present to the new (low time) pilot. Is it as bad as several
> other discussions and articles would lead one to believe or is it
> something that can be "lived with" once understood?

Where *do* these 16 year old posts come from?

Re Libelle: the Club Libelle does in fact have similar airbrake/flap
though t's not usable as flaps without airbrakes. Opening the airbrakes
*lowered* the stall speed by 5 knots or so. Some say you can't close
them near the ground but that's of course rubbish as long as you're
safely above the clean stall speed. The thing slows down so fast in
level flight with full brakes that there's no reason *not* to carry
decent speed until the flare.

The brakes are effective enough that 120 kg me could do a near as
dammit vertical descent at 85 knots.

I did about 60 hours in that Club Libelle before my club sold her when
it got two PW5s (let's not talk about that...), but here are some
recent pics of her at her current home near Whangarei:

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4014/4378553306_55d9d14139_b.jpg

https://scontent-a-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/t1.0-9/1010223_797680173591917_533059112_n.jpg


https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/s526x395/1503900_793022900724311_1983618323_n.jpg?oh=5aedec c689b9675b9114e4e9e7fdcc13&oe=5450B668&__gda__=1414676821_62278f17648e204ded5d92aaae6fa4f f


The first shows open brakes from above. In the second the "flap" part
of the brakes is visible below the wing.

On Tuesday, August 5, 2014 7:31:28 PM UTC-7, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> On 2014-08-05 11:48:05 +0000, said:
>
> > On Wednesday, August 26, 1998 7:00:00 AM UTC, Albin O. Schreiter wrote:
> >> On Wed, 26 Aug 1998 16:31:07 +0200, (Miriano
> >> Ravazzolo) wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> My experience on those spoilers are only on the Libelle. Maybe what
> >>> can> >be said is that this kind of things have to be used a little bit
> >>> more> >"slowly" than a SH air-brake. You can actually close them
> >>> everytime, even> >during flare, if you consider them as a kind of
> >>> "active elements" which> >modify not only your drag but also your
> >>> asset. If you close them> >abbruptly, before starting the new (flatter)
> >>> angle the nose will drop a> >little to let you gain a bit of more
> >>> speed, and this is not advisable too> >close to the ground.
> >>>
> >>> Miriano Ravazzolo
> >>
> >> Your experience on a Libelle does not help much with the Mini-Nimbus
> >> flap/trailing edge dive brakes. On the Mini it is just about essential
> >> NOT to close the system slowly. The correct way is to close
> >> flap/divebrake fast and completely, and to then start over again to
> >> whatever setting is appropriate. This avoids the danger of stalling
> >> inadvertently.
> >> Remove NOSPAM from return address before replying
> >
> > this is a fascinating discussion about the flap/spoiler combination but
> > I would like to know about the all flying tail and what issues that
> > might present to the new (low time) pilot. Is it as bad as several
> > other discussions and articles would lead one to believe or is it
> > something that can be "lived with" once understood?
>
> Where *do* these 16 year old posts come from?
>
> Re Libelle: the Club Libelle does in fact have similar airbrake/flap
> though t's not usable as flaps without airbrakes. Opening the airbrakes
> *lowered* the stall speed by 5 knots or so. Some say you can't close
> them near the ground but that's of course rubbish as long as you're
> safely above the clean stall speed. The thing slows down so fast in
> level flight with full brakes that there's no reason *not* to carry
> decent speed until the flare.
>
> The brakes are effective enough that 120 kg me could do a near as
> dammit vertical descent at 85 knots.
>
> I did about 60 hours in that Club Libelle before my club sold her when
> it got two PW5s (let's not talk about that...), but here are some
> recent pics of her at her current home near Whangarei:
>
> https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4014/4378553306_55d9d14139_b.jpg
>
> https://scontent-a-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/t1.0-9/1010223_797680173591917_533059112_n.jpg
>
>
> https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/s526x395/1503900_793022900724311_1983618323_n.jpg?oh=5aedec c689b9675b9114e4e9e7fdcc13&oe=5450B668&__gda__=1414676821_62278f17648e204ded5d92aaae6fa4f f
>
>
> The first shows open brakes from above. In the second the "flap" part
> of the brakes is visible below the wing.

I'll tell you where these 16 year old posts come from:
There are no dates on most of these, or if there are, they're hard to find.
One of my biggest internet pet peeves is this one.
EVERY posting should have a date, INCLUDING THE YEAR so we don't look like idiots posting to messages left during the ice age.

On Tue, 11 Nov 2014 01:21:32 -0800, murphydrj wrote:

> I'll tell you where these 16 year old posts come from:
>
Actually, you didn't tell us anything on the sort - you merely moaned
about hard to find dates.

They certainly didn't come from an NNTP server, which seldom keep
anything for more than a year or so. Most news readers also expire old
articles. I use Pan, which has a server-dependent expiry period which
defaults to three months. The news reading experience is better if you
use a news reader: they are generally faster, have a better user
interface and, last but not least, usually have a decent kill-file
capability.

The usual suspect for old junk is some web-based news archiver like
Google Groups, formerly known as Deja Vu before Google bought and
disimproved it.

> There are no dates on most of these, or if there are, they're hard to
> find.
>
If you *must* use something like that to view current NNTP articles, it
really is your responsibility to check the date before posting.

> One of my biggest internet pet peeves is this one.
> EVERY posting should have a date, INCLUDING THE YEAR so we don't look
> like idiots posting to messages left during the ice age.
>
I've got news for you: they do, so NNTP servers and readers know when to
expire old articles. Without dates you can't do this and an article
without a date will, hopefully, be treated as very old and expired
immediately.

Poorly designed and written news archivers and web apps, which operate
outside the limits of the NNTP protocol may or may not insist on dated
articles and can and will do what they please with dates. Let the user
beware.



--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |